
[Please also see my early post title: Men For Whom I Am Thankful: John Piper. Pastor John is an incredible gift to the Church, and I humbly acknowledge his great influence on me. May the Lord continue to raise up such servants]There are three types of people who read this blog. First, the people who know me. These generally are friends and/or congregants from my current (and former) church body, as well as those whom I have met in some other ministry involvements. Second, there is my mom (thanks, mom). The third category are those individuals in the blogging and internet world that have stumbled upon this blog and have become regular (or at least occasional) readers.
It is this last group that I risk offending, as the majority of these are reformed, perhaps baptistic, individuals who for the most part have a deep respect of John Piper. With such a brazen blog article title, I have some quick explaining to do.
Recently John Piper wrote an article on his blog about Fundamentalists. The article was particularly moving because Pastor Piper was responding with grace to the personal attacks against him by hyper-fundamentalists. I was moved by his restraint, as well as his loving tone to those who openly maligned him. His response evidenced a deep faith, a commitment to Christ-likeness, and a concentrated humility.
However, Piper ended his article with a jab at (presumably) those who criticize these fundamentalists. His last sentence states, "I think that some of the whining about its ill effects would have to also be directed against the black-and-white bluntness of Jesus".
Hyper-fundamentalism is a world that John Piper only knows from afar. He attended Wheaton (a non-fundamentalist school), Fuller (the 'center of compromise' to a fundamentalist), and the University of Munich (which is in liberal Europe). The mere fact that he went to these schools indicates that he either was never part of, or cut ties early with the brand of fundamentalism under consideration. Add this this the fact that he pastors in the Baptist General Conference, a baptist denomination that hyper-fundamentalist view as being either heretical, or tolerant of heresy. To be frank, Piper is an outsider to the Fundamentalist world.
While I appreciate John's attitude of reconciliation, one is at a loss to explain exactly how hyper fundamentalism looks like anything Jesus would do. Certainly the need to separate from sin is biblical, but the more conservative quarters of Evangelicalism already make this call. In fact, other that the word "separation", there is little in common between the separation Jesus advocated, and the separation advocated by hyper-fundamentalists.
Jesus is to be honored and followed because of his black-and-white bluntness against our sins of pride, drunkenness, adultery, and greed.
Are we to honor hyper-fundamentalists for their black-and-white bluntness against the "sins" of speaking in tongues, long hair on men, contemporary chorus music, and anything non-KJV?
What Piper considers as "whining" against Fundamentalism many of us see as lovingly, but firmly, responding to an errant theology and distorted Christianity. Was Piper "whining" when he responded to NT Wright's views on justification? Was Piper "whining" when he wrote his responses to the evangelical-feminist movement? Or, was he lovingly but firmly responding to an errant theology and distorted Christianity?
I love John Piper's ministry. He continues to be a massive influence in my life both theologically and pastorally. However, when it comes to the threat of fundamentalism, John Piper doesn't get it. But then again, that's OK. He is much more effective outside that world.
As part of the first group of readers, I really know the respect you have for Piper. I'm sure you desperately wish for him to know the severity of the wrongdoings associated with the current breed of Fundamentalist (or hyper-Fundamentalist, because for some, Fundamentalist isn't a bad word)
ReplyDeleteI think you ended well though. Piper has an incredible ministry, and I'd hate to see radical Fundies kill his spirit.
Josh,
ReplyDeleteJust a comment about Piper's direct familiarity with fundamentalists. I believe he knows them more intimately than you imply. I believe he grew up in Greenville, SC in a conservative SBC church. Particularly note that his father was a former member of the board at Bob Jones University. If his father was a Bob Jones board member I would have to believe that he learned a lot about fundamentalism in his growing up years and in discussions with his father.
David
Josh,
ReplyDeleteI'm a member of group #3, according to the beginning of your post, so I don't know you apart from your blog, and vice versa. It seems obvious to me, and maybe I'm wrong, that you have come out of what you would term hyper-fundamentalism. Am I correct? I make that assumption because your vitriol for - what you term hyperfundamentalism - fits the profile of a former member who has been enlightened. Every blogger I read who is critical of the IFBx is a former IFBx. And it seems to me that you guys - obviously I don't count myself in your number; either as a critic or a former member - speak about them in the same tone as they speak about everyone else. Even to the point, in your case, of suggesting that Piper is blissfully ignorant of IFBx and therefore unable to accurately speak to the issue. Don't forget that Piper was raised in South Carolina. Yes, in the SBC but there are plenty of fundies in South Carolina. I don't think the man is as ignorant of the movement as you intimate.
Also, I don't know anything about the group to which Piper linked. I only read what was linked, and while it clearly fundamentalist ware, it didn't strike me as IFBX. But you may be more familiar with them than I. To be honest, until I started cruising blogs, and writing one myself, I didn't realize that a de facto denomination known as IFB existed, or that the denomination had a hardcore off-shoot - IFBx.
It just seemed odd to me that a post entitled Why Piper Doesn't Get It dealt with his gracious words toward the FBFI instead of his view on the gifts or perhaps a critique of his recent open letter to Grudem about baptism.
True. I should have emphasized his earlier years, thank you for clarifying that point. But it is also true that he has been well outside the movement for the majority of his life, and for all of his independent (adult) life. Actually, the greater his familiarity with fundamentalism the harder it will be to explain his comments. We should keep in mind, of course, that "fundamentalism" is a broad category. I think in his post Piper probably incorrectly used that term broadly. If we are speaking of the softer side of fundamentalism, then his point stands. If we are speaking of the more rigid form (and the organization he was responding to is certainly from the rigid camp), then his point falls flat.
ReplyDeleteHyper-fundamentalism "sounds" like Jesus the same way that 2nd Temple period Pharisaical Judaism "sounds" like Jesus.
If I were to say that NT Wright' s view on Justification sounds like Jesus, one would then conclude that I either don't understand NT Wright, or I don't understand Jesus.
ReplyDeleteThe same is true of Piper and fundamentalism. Either he doesn't understand hyper-fundamentalism, or he doesn't understand Jesus. Since, I believe, he does understand Jesus, I can only conclude that he doesn't understand hyper-fundamentalism.
Also, the issue isn't whether or not we should use harsh language. Jesus did that. Hyper-fundamentalists do that. John Piper does that. The Apostle Paul did that. I do that. The issue is why we are using harsh language.
Theological legalism is a sin as pervasive as theological liberalism. Neither sound like Jesus.
I'm not anti-harsh language. In fact, my words need to be sprinkled with grace more often. I'm also not attacking you by any means, and I hope I have not given that impression. I just think that there are legitimate points of Piper's theology with which one could disagree, but his comment about the Fundies was not one.
ReplyDeleteOf course, this is Ephemeros and not Use the Oxgoad. You're free to bring up anything you want, and this blog has been a blessing. I do agree that error should be confronted; whether the error is Emergent, liberal theology, or IFB extremism which distorts the gospel and replaces it with the yoke of legalism.
One comment, Josh...if you think that the FBF represents "hyper-fundamentalism", then you've been graciously spared from the real dark side of the movement. In the fundy movement, the FBF is certainly not linked with the "hysteric" side of things.
ReplyDeleteEllis, as the old saying goes, "murkier waters lie deeper still". I agree, there are more extreme versions out there than the FBF.
ReplyDeleteTravis, your comments were perfectly fine. Most likely, Piper is using the term "fundamentalism" in its historic sense. If that is the case, his comment is 100% spot on. However, few (if any) modern fundamentalist groups can truly considered the legitimate sons of historic fundamentalism. Plus, who exactly was Piper criticizing? The liberals who malign the fundamentalists? Or the fellow-conservatives who call them on the carpet? If the former, I can see his point. If the later, I'm not so sure Piper is right. It would be helpful for him to be more clear on the issue.
Just so you know...john piper's dad was a fundamentalist....something to think about..
ReplyDeleteKevin,
ReplyDeleteVery true, which may explain his highly sentimental view of what is bordering on a heretical movement. Of course, Fundamentalism has many "shades". It would be incorrect to view it all as heretical just as it would be to view it all as benign.
I agree with Piper that historic fundamentalism held the line against liberalism. I disagree on his charitable assessment of current fundamentalism, or at least most of what comprises current fundamentalism.
What do you think of John Piper’s comments on the earth is billions of years…”Whatever science says it is, it is…”?
ReplyDelete“In verse 1, “In the beginning he made the heavens and the earth,” he makes everything. And then you go day by day and he’s preparing the land. He’s not bringing new things into existence; he’s preparing the land and causing things to grow and separating out water and earth. And then, when it’s all set and prepared, he creates and puts man there.
So that has the advantage of saying that the earth is billions of years old if it wants to be—whatever science says it is, it is—but man is young, and he was good and he sinned. He was a real historical person, because Romans 5 says so, and so does the rest of the Bible.”
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/what-should-we-teach-about-creation
This is were you get into the problem that you would have to believe that death and dying occurred before original sin of man and that suffering, and dying in the world wasn’t caused by man. If you try to mix evolution with the Bible, it will blow your theology apart.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day.
Jesus Christ said in Mark 10:6…”But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” Here, Christ is saying that they were created at the beginning.